Stoicism is not Therapy, but Training (Part 2)

 This email message from Grant Sterling to the International Stoic Forum is the second of a three part discussion he had with Jules Evans.

At 12:07 PM 2/25/2008, Stoic Stoic wrote:

>Well, I don't agree with you, Grant. Im not saying that you havent

>done useful and helpful work with others, but I dont agree that to

>get the benefit from Stoic techniques and ideas, you must accept all

>of Stoic theory.

I never said that. I said you must accept the core Stoic

beliefs.

>Imagine you went to the doctor with a terrible fever and they said

>'now, before i can treat you, ill need you to accept in entirety all

>of my theories'!

If the fever was _caused by_ false medical beliefs, that's

exactly what I'd expect him to say. [Leaving out the "in

entirely all" part.]

>imagine if buddhists said, 'before you come in and learn this

>meditation technique, you must accept all buddhist doctrine and metaphysics'.

Again, Buddhists do not hold the same view as Stoics

with regard to the origin of the ills meditation is meant to deal

with.

>In fact, millions of people have been greatly helped by learning the

>basic insight of Stoicism - that much of our suffering comes from

>our interpretation of external events, rather than the events themselves.

Specifically, that the events themselves are never worth

suffering over. yes, I quite agree. That is why the only doctrines

I claimed most be accepted to derive benefits from Stoicism are

the ones connected with this concept. Please re-read my post.

>People can grasp that quite quickly, and take a leap forward in

>terms of how they view the world and their own minds.

I quite agree. I never said otherwise. But what you're saying

is that to derive the benefits of Stoicism, what is needed is that the

person come to _believe_ the core principle of Stoic thought...which

is what I thought I was saying in my post. :) Stoic therapy does

not work without this belief.

>of course you can use stoic techniques (thought journals, staying in

>the moment, visualizations, thought analyzing and

>challenging) without accepting all of stoic metaphysics.

I never said otherwise. But you cannot use these techniques

(or, at any rate, there won't be anything remotely _Stoic_ about

your use of these techniques) if you don't accept the core

principles of Stoicism.

>i have experienced this myself - i dont sign up to all of stoic

>metaphysics, i dont believe in a Stoic Logos, i dont think all good

>is equally good and all bad is equally bad, i dont believe in the

>dignity of suicide, and various other stoic dogma.

I, too, do not believe everything the ancient Stoics believed.

>nonetheless, i used stoic techniques to overcome social anxiety, by

>focusing on how my own thoughts caused my anxiety, rather than the

>people around me; and then learning to control those thoughts.

That's great. But, as you say, that is a direct and simple

application of a basic part of the Stoic belief system. Unlike

the doctor's fever medicine, or even the Buddhist's meditation

techniques, this method _does not work_ unless you believe the

principle upon which it is based. If you believe that our desires

and emotions are casued by external events, or that they are not in

our control, or that the external events are truly evil and so the

anxiety is justified...then you can't relieve the anxiety "Stoically".

>yes, modern psychotherapy is parasitic of stoicism, just as stoicism

>is parasitic of cynicism and platonism.

The relationship is not the same.

>thank god psychotherapy has taken parts of stoicism and put them to

>use in the real world. if they hadn't, all those millions of people

>wouldn't have got past the door, because they don't understand

>eupatheia or they don't accept that virtue is the only good...

So do they believe that external things are truly good, thereby

having desires for them, thereby becoming distressed when things

don't go exactly as they desire them to go? If so, then the

psychotherapy isn't helping them much. It would have been better

if they'd learned philosophy instead.

>As to stoicism only working as an immunization rather than a cure,

>there are literally millions of modern examples which disprove that,

>millions of examples where people have used stoic techniques to

>overcome emotional disorders which they are already in the grip of.

Not without chaning their beliefs, they didn't.

>and in the ancient world, cicero used stoic teachings to get over

>his breakdown when his daughter died. if he had fully accepted stoic

>teachings before she died, he wouldnt have had a breakdown. but he

>still found stoicism very helpful to get over his bereavement.

>

>stoicism is a therapy - its a cure. if we werent sick in the first

>place, we wouldnt need the cure.

We are sick in the sense that we have an underlying condition that

breaks out in incidents of distress. No real cure for the distress exists that

doesn't address the underlying condition.

>All the best,

>

>Julian

Regards,

Grant

Stoicism not Therapy, but Training (Part 3)